The-Conversation-(Pt-III)-High-Strangeness-in-Modernity.txt

so yeah I was saying that I have seen

images of what appear to be human

females that have an immediate

transgenic effect that resembles the

effect of exposure to psychedelic drugs

and that I found this extremely

concerning and you asked me why what

about it I found

concerning and I said I don't want to be

exposed

images that can directly hijack my

nervous system and you know like I'm not

even going to yeah I guess I am going to

so in a situation like

that a human being is incapable of

understanding what is being done to

their nervous system and whether or not

they are being covertly programmed or

instructed by such

interactions um there's literally no way

to tell right so what do you mean

there's no way to tell how would you

tell okay so how would you tell if there

are if there's

essentially emotional and psychological

stogy in an image that you're being

exposed to that was designed by a

machine to directly manipulate Andor

instruct you you'd have no way to tell

you can't detect it

can you can you define that word

stenography yeah steganography is the

concealment so one of the things I was

working on with my friend Forest is a

program called

steg that would allow us to do

steganography in any image that we

choose so that we could like post an

image online and only people with the

decryption code could deter could get

the the actual message from the

image Facebook would not be able to

Google would not be able to we could

actually St ston stogi wait

steganography our emails so that they

appeared as glyphs or symbols and only

the person with the key could decrypt

them that would save

us from having our texts scanned by

machines um so steganography which is

often used by

intelligence or gations and also

terrorist

organizations is simply hiding data in a

in a image right so you get an image of

a naked girl it actually has a map of a

military site in

it that kind of

thing so

crazy so what I'm talking about is the

capacity to

stenographically in encode instructions

to human nervous systems in

images so you're you're saying that

there are ways in which images can

influence our Consciousness and and or

our nervous systems that we would have

no way of knowing I mean

that's yeah you're right I wouldn't know

if that was happening at all have no way

to

know I'm not entirely certain

um how that would be possible

ordinary images already hijack your

nervous system

so so then it sounds like what you're

talking about is

unavoidable

um it's not

unavoidable well I'll just close my eyes

then um yeah pral responses aren't going

to help us here but but I mean like like

I can't stop myself from

seeing so then it sounds like if if

images are already hijacking a

Consciousness in that way

then yeah not much to do I just made a I

just did an interview with too

toorak the curator of the beware of

images Facebook

site um he's a graphic designer who's

using images to warn people about their

dangers Facebook throttled the [ __ ] out

of his sight he had 300,000 followers

and then he started getting like four

views on his

posts yeah I just did an interview with

him um what's his name Sergio toor toppo

call him very cool amazing we had an

amazing

talk so my point

was and there's a lot of complex points

here like humans tend to think that our

minds are separate from what's going on

on for example in

computers and they're

not even if there's physical separation

right between my brain and the entire

internet um that that physical

separation is

compromised by the fact that the people

around me are being

influenced um even if there's no right

even if there's like

no even if there's no

metaphysical aspect to a human cognum

which I thoroughly

doubt um the problem with one of the

problems with AI in general and with the

internet first is that it's influencing

everyone around you so you know even if

there is some kind of putative

separation there's no separation you're

going to be influenced whether you use

the internet or not

because you're going to be exposed to

other humans at the very least and

that's presuming separation between your

mind and the human

cognum which there

isn't so does that make any sense so far

yeah for sure okay so even if I don't

look at AI images of women right even if

I just stop seeing them which is going

to be really hard if I'm using the

internet or a smartphone at

all um other people will be looking at

those images and they will be directly

influencing their behavior for certain I

promise you straight up that China and

Russia are on top of this if the United

States

isn't and you know over the past like

three

years I've started to see images of

Asian

women that look nothing like any Asian

woman I've ever seen like huge breasts

thin waist tall tin wide

hips um I'm not saying that no no Asian

women like this exist what I'm saying is

I'm being barraged with these kinds of

images primarily of Chinese

women that's not

accidental right that's that's a

strategy that's being deployed

purposefully by China for

sure so this is quite Terri terrifying

this had not occurred to me as a likely

outcome of

AI uh influence and I mean there's much

weirder possibilities of these teangers

vastly weirder that are quite staggering

I'm not trying to scare you um I just I

take these threats you know I study

human Communications Behavior so this is

my

wheelhouse so what are the repercussions

of being shown these

women um thousands of them you're being

primed right about what's beautiful

what's

desirable um what you can and cannot

have access to at the very very least uh

images of women have always had a

priming effect on the male and female

populations and Nations at least since

the beginning of pornography one of the

driving forces of the development of the

internet um and certainly during the 70s

80s and 90s when magazines like Playboy

and Penthouse and Hustler became

popular but these days I mean it's

vastly vastly more pregnant and you know

multi-branched we're entering the age

where our nervous systems are about to

be directly captured by technology and

most of the people around you are going

to be in that state

so you can you know you can sort of I

don't know what what can actually be

done we have to one of the things that I

think is important that we do as soon as

humanly possible is establish a second

branch of the internet that's protected

from these things because if we don't

it's over I mean it's literally over

dude within a very short period of time

the tech will be able to read your heart

rate um skin conductance uh pupil

dilation your

respiration and surface sweat on your

body it'll also be able to read and

analyze micro gestures in your facial

muscles once that kind of [ __ ] happens

it's we're [ __ ] done for we've got to

inter we've got to produce a second

branch of the internet that we can know

cannot be subjected to such Technologies

and if the Technologies become UB

so that they're unavoidable then then

the second branch has to utilize them

for our

benefit right we have to collect that

data ourselves analyze it ourselves and

use it to educate ourselves and perhaps

produce

immunity I feel like there's a fallacy

in that I'd love for you to show it to

me uh like sort of using the same

technology that you're scared that will

destroy us to try and help us it seems

like that that's uh

I let me try to put it into

words so it's not just a feeling

um it seems

risky because how could you know that

it's not being compromised and

also

um you know I've heard the argument

enough times that technology is neutral

it's the way that you use it but you

know I'm suspicious of the internet

being a positive thing

period

so why

would why would trying to use it in

similar ways that it's being used

against us be good for

us like it seems like unplugging would

be the the best move for no chance of

that helping you everyone around you

doesn't have another

option every single person you

know and the cultures you live in don't

have another option I mean we just

witnessed the result of scops on the

United States in the

election so what are you g to do like

leave organized

countries I there are some options you

could move to Tamara in

Portugal right go totally off grid but

Tamara is in

Portugal

so you know where you g to go outer

space but um I can address each of those

objections I think and by the way when

you hear that little sound in the

background that's just a noise to remind

us that we're being recorded since the

iPhones now have the option to record

calls which I've been waiting for

for um all right so the first objection

is how can we use a technology that's

harming us to benefit

us um in other words how can we use a

technology that's harming us to protect

us from the technology that's harming us

and we're facing this particular problem

with every aspect of

cognition because you're being scripted

by the English language and by the users

of English around you to exerpt your

experiential world according to the

rules and categories of commonly used

English that's extremely [ __ ]

dangerous so if it's true that we can't

use techn Tech ology to protect us from

the technology we're trying to protect

ourselves from then it should be

impossible for us to learn things about

language and our relationship with

categories and identity that would give

us immunity to some of the gambits that

we're subject to as users of English we

can't get rid of language we live in a

world where languages

everywhere um but we can actually learn

about language in the same way we can

learn about

psychology or neural linguistic

programming or priming of humans with

images and um

scenes uh so all of these things we can

learn about and in the ways that we

learn about them we will gain some

degree of Liberty from their effect we

have the same problem with machines we

can't get rid of machines they're

killing

everything um but it doesn't but if

we're going to be forced to use machines

we could use them more

intelligently that's one of my

perspectives on the first

question or the first objection excuse

me so um would you agree that by

learning more about how we

cognize and language's effects on us we

can acquire some immunity from some of

those effects yeah I definitely believe

that okay me too otherwise we're kind of

done with talking right like there's no

chance for um and would you also agree

that the ordinary uneducated language

user is subject to a variety of con

games gambits

and um dis empowerments that that occur

uh

naturally I would say that they're not

only vulnerable to that they're also

likely um producing it the same way that

a virus injects a cell and then starts

to make itself brilliant we agree about

that I yes they are um

reproducing the

contagion every time they make face

noises um they're

reinforcing previous

disabling behaviors and perspectives

with language and cognition and

specifically with identity right what

something is as we discussed in that uh

Extinction Audi

meeting okay so that's the first

objection the second objection is oh

that's

dangerous right um I get it and this is

why I have

resisted for nearly 25 years now

attempting to implement the knowledge

amp Tech which would establish a second

branch of the

internet um because I thought it was

dangerous and other people who I you

know ran through the idea with they're

like dude that can just be

captured okay

here's the

problem it's kind of this sort of a

problem if you know someone is going to

invade your

house and Poison every object in there

so

that so that the objects influence you

unconsciously constantly

thereafter you kind of have two

choices you either have to do something

you have to do what they're doing in a

way that you prefer

that will overcome or possibly even

destroy that whole

agenda or you have to sit back and let

them have their way with you and we're

facing the same problem now I used to

think no the knowledge amp is too

dangerous now I think not doing the

knowledge amp is more dangerous than

doing it we've got to at least begin the

process of building technologies that

are pro human Liberty pro- intelligence

pro- human

education and that are separated from

advertising pornography Sops and so

forth AI actually gives us the

capacity to I mean I'm using the word AI

rather uh trivially here what I mean is

heuristic

algorithms um those give us the capacity

to do that stuff with and for each other

in our own way

and we can encrypt the analytic data

with you know very powerful forms of

encryption perhaps um developed by all

um by AI systems so that the analytic

data stays with us and is useless to

anybody who gets a hold of the uh what I

call the

artifact we got to try if if we don't do

something

in a very short period of time I'm

talking less than five years we're not

going to be able to be human

anymore like this is incipient danger

this is like right on the edge of

everything people are worried about

trivial [ __ ] like can where should I

should I really get a house or have a

girlfriend or BL you know I don't really

know about the future no dude there is

some like if nuclear war and

bioweapons were the most significant

threat and those are really significant

threats um I think what I'm talking

about

is presuming that one of that those two

things don't wipe us off the face of the

Earth the threat I'm talking about is

the most dangerous threat at the

moment and and so this threat is very

cognitive heavy it's hugely it's it's

very much in the realm of language and

of uh images images processes it's a lot

of higher order intelligence yeah but it

directly affects the Soma so it's right

like it it transforms the nervous system

immediately it can capture the nervous

the human nervous system I have no

doubt that based on what you're saying

that

um understanding these intelligences in

the way that they manipulate us and use

using them to our

advantage at least just the knowledge

and understanding of how they work is

useful um and I'm also curious in

exploring more sematic

remedies

more um you know how can we use the

intelligences of the body to combat

these higher order things I I think

about it's it's a two-way street so when

my mind is spiraling and when

I'm um hurting because of the mental

constructs that I've trapped myself in I

can use my body as a reliable way I can

focus on my breathing I can calm my

heartbeat I can connect with those older

intelligences to counteract whatever

mental traps that I've put myself in or

I've been put in due to

outside um you know

forces and

so when we're dealing

with such

subliminal um attacks how can I trust my

body how can I trust my nervous system

to help Pull Me Away In addition to that

understanding of the way that these

things work yeah that's brilliant you

want to rely on the oldest stuff you can

possibly touch right and that's

definitely your cells your nervous

system and so

forth however

um so we never want to get rid of that

right that's got to be the

foundation but what's about to happen is

that our bodies aren't going to be our

bodies

anym like literally

um it's possible to directly transform

the human nervous system and

Metabolism now uh and it's going to

become you know that's going to be the

target of every existing

government so I think we've got to

establish um altruistic pro-human

AI systems and a second internet that

um Where We Gather our own analytics for

each

other uh and we can distribute those and

use them in all kinds of astonishing

ways that I've mapped out you know

pieces

of um without compromising our the the

uh security of that information but you

know we're we're right on the verge of

everything we do gets captured and you

know capitalized upon for the sake of

what we think is advertising but it's

actually not going to be advertising

anymore it's going to be straight up

manipulation slavy yeah yeah right on

the verge of it yeah because I mean I

think like okay I can avoid getting

cybernetics that you know would rely on

software which could be manipulated but

then what happens when the chemicals

that are being put in my food is

changing my

metabolism working in tandem with the

other sublimal things that are going on

yeah exactly exactly right um and so my

initial impression my newj reaction is I

need to develop a sense of self and a

sense of community that is based off of

core principles that cannot exist in the

same space as these manipulations

you also said something that

uh is common for humans to think about

right counteract or you can use the word

combat and what I'm proposing is not

combat um anytime we form up I mean this

is something we learn in taii right you

form up against an

opponent it's over in taii that's the

end of the

encounter so we have to do the other

thing we have to give people something

so amazing and

exciting and profound to interact with

and to interact with each other through

that everybody defects from the old

system nobody wants to be left

out we've got to establish a game B in

the words of you know schmachtenberger

and dark web schmachtenberger just

doesn't have this idea yet he's too he's

become hopeless actually he just sees oh

this is the end there's nothing we can

do it's over and as a threat analyst

he's not wrong but he's he's been

defeated by the Deluge of the metac

crisis right and he doesn't see that

it's possible for us to build an

entirely new way of Being Human together

with tech and so then the argument is

the third objection is well can't that

be

captured and the simple answer is yes

anything can be captured true but if we

establish a new branch of civilization

that's not merely resistant to

capture it outperforms the capturing

momenta then we' got

shot right and that's a little bit of

what we do in the

meetings you know for a couple of hours

we're about

insight and I I think one of the changes

in the meetings happened since I've been

um more active in them is it's gone from

Doom singing which was the primary focus

of the meetings to opportunity

space and that's the shift we need right

that's part of what you're talking about

when you say I want to be in touch with

my body I want

to use the ancient

intelligences in me and as me to resist

but resistance

as you know it's it's it's a losing game

if you're trying to resist Mount Everest

or the ocean or whatever right right for

sure you have to either establish a new

path that

um that operationalizes the momentums

around you for your

benefit yeah right something like that

yeah I think that's where language fails

me or Fails Like translating what I'm

feeling because yeah it's not like I

would was

imagining you know people like arming to

banding together and like squeezing

their butt cheeks against the hole it's

more like

um how can

I maintain that Clarity and and that

ability

to

um

hold what's beautiful and not just you

know mination and um

enslavement how can we make more

bubbles in the

manifold then yes rebubble IE that's the

primary thing right as the manifold is

collapsing Mo reactivity just causes

more rapid

collapse um so we have to rebubble lie

so to speak which means produce new

um new features in the opportunity space

and we've got to get the humans going

from resistance rejection and conflict

toward

Innovation um Insight

relationship memory intelligence

play um all of these things right

creativity and right now there's nothing

on the table there literally nothing I

mean there's a little bubbling things

that bubble up here and there um most of

them get C pretty quick Burning Man is

one example of such a bubble that is

easily captured was

captured um but yeah we've got to rebiz

and we got to get the humans aware of

the opportunities of rebubble isation so

to

speak so I have a question for you

then a lot of games and I in this sense

I mean like actual games like board

games um you know

they're often competition

based that I play and they're also

um a lot of a lot of games that are

produced are just variations on war y

like teams with different agendas

different strategies capturing territory

by the way that's priming people for

that being the only game in town but

yeah I'm listening yeah and

so that that's concerning to me um me

too that's not not what game should be

and you and I have both played and

enjoyed I think at least a few games

that were Cooperative right where we

come together and my contributions and

your contributions now even the war

games are like that right if you know

say playing um Halo PVP or whatever

right they have this

feature of my skill plus your skill

equals better skills so we form a pod

and then we fight another pod what we

have to do is form pods to fight the

things that are oppressing us rather

than just invented nonsense in Virtual

space right and that's going to be super

exciting if you give people a direct

experience even one time of I form a pod

you form a pod we cooperate to overcome

an actual re real world world problem

boom everybody's going to want in on

that [ __ ] they're G to it there's

nothing as addictive as an actual effect

in the world of human and and or you

know organismal

beings so we can produce something much

more effective and addictive than what

we're being you know than the forces

that are

decohering

our human intelligence and communal you

know

nature we can't get rid of the tech but

we can redeploy it

yeah I guess I'm getting a little lost

in the weeds because my point of

bringing up that that sort of Game

Theory War like strategy games that seem

to you know just come back over and over

again with different variations yeah by

the way just what's amazing about that

and please keep you know don't lose your

your train of thought but that's a

perfect example of a thris right it just

keeps producing new forms of the same

thris right each one that grabs the

nervous system a little more it ratchets

its its grip on the nervous system a

little more tightly that's the whole

goal so that that's

self-replicating so hold that in one

hand in the other hand we're

also um talking about like oh you know

there is a group of people you know who

are taking advantage of these holes and

people's understanding of Their Own

Consciousness and they are manipulating

them

um somewhere in the lines of like

testing to see how much it works and now

also just kind of in like oh we have an

agenda we G to use this to right so

they're doing gain of function research

on way to manipulate humans and they can

do that these days extremely cheaply and

unimaginably quickly go ahead and so you

and I see that as a problem for sure and

in the old in the old framework you

would say that that that makes them an

enemy can the idea of an enemy exist in

the framework of wanting to produce more

bubbles more cooperation more Beauty

rather than resist compete fight

brilliant question so this is the

problem of the dream

assassin um because ordinarily what

introduces not ordinarily very commonly

what portends the end of dreaming is the

introduction of an

enemy um and we should pay very careful

attention to the anciently evolved

intelligences that are involved in our

dreaming

experience in this

way because they can teach us what to do

instead in the same way that we can

learn how to overcome the influence of

the dream assassin the collaps of the

dreams which isn't always the right idea

by the

way um we can take cues from that

learning and transfer them to excuse me

our human uh

experience and situation in societies

with technology so yeah the important

thing isn't to identify an enemy right

this is why when I was

posing a

figure about

uh what humans can do together to get an

experience of the opposite of

combat that's very

compelling right the goal isn't an enemy

it's a problem that we want to overcome

together right we want to take a

situation that's causing harm and

suffering and transfer that transform

that into a situation that results in

new intelligence new opportunities an

expansion of the opportunity space for

the people

were previously suffering and so forth

and humans are very capable of this they

do it all the time just not doing it in

an organized way yet or at least they're

not doing it large scale in

organiz sorry I got a little I was

listening but I was also um having a

hard time following because I was also

thinking at the same time okay you know

what happens yeah I do that too so I I

lost you in in instead of it being being

an

enemy um instead of that dream assassin

thing sort of happening yeah it's

troubleshooting and

transformation okay and so we're still

identifying a problem yeah we're not

treating it as an enemy we're

transmuting it into what more Beauty

like like no way let me let me say very

clearly what we're doing so we identify

a problem that becomes an opportunity

space for our own Mutual relational

development Liberation and joy

MH right so we use the problem to climb

the ladder of our developmental

Humanity which is what we all were

hoping for when we got born

here is a is a chance to experience

ecstasy in this form and also ecstasis

from The Prisoner systems that are

trapping and oppressing us and

ratcheting down their grip on what it

means to be

human if we fight those systems they

just ratchet faster

right you're feeding it yeah

exactly I I really appreciate this

conversation and I trust our ability to

pick up where we left off but ER uh

someone is calling me that needs my help

so can I get back to you yeah absolutely

appreciate

you we were talking about how vigilance

ambiguity and prediction form a triangle

that underlies most human anxiety and um

if not all of it it's hard to fent

anxiety without these three PS that's

getting activated and vigilance isn't

just about see about watching things

vigilance also has to do with being

observed and um men and women uh

historically and presently tend it's not

a law it's a principle to have different

concerns about this though both of them

are seers and both of them are

observed um this is why we have the idea

of flexing uh which is to you know make

a

display but

traditionally the symbol of the woman in

front of the

mirror um points up the the feminine

fascination with being the focus of

observation uh and things like

um

sports right

traditionally uh point up the focus the

the male

um aspect of being observed being

observed performing excellent acts and

so

forth effectively in the psyche the

masculine aspect tends to want to

see and The Feminine aspect tends to

want to be seen of course there there's

very there really complex stuff here

because the feminine aspect does not

want to be seen in the ways it does not

want to be seen

um and the masculine aspect tends to I

don't actually know what the

vulnerability there is we're all

vulnerable to negative

observational stuff so what I was

pointing out is in a situation

where someone's anxious about something

and there's

ambiguity um for

example I mean we can create an example

everything that we're anxious about at

mous let's say the example I came up

with was

um I got a new cell phone and I can't

connect it to the internet and I've been

trying for three days I've been on the

phone with text support they've sent me

two new SIM cards it's not

working now I can't tell when so there's

temporal ambiguity I can't tell when or

if the problem will ever be solved and

there's also situational ambiguity right

I need the phone to connect to the

Internet it's I have to be able to do

that so in some cases what happens

particularly in psychosis or

schizophrenia or extreme

anxiety is that the left hemisphere will

gladly this is what I discovered when I

learned these principles by observing my

own family members under high

stress um in in many cases and the

American election is an example of this

in a situation of high

ambiguity oh [ __ ] oh I got to write this

in my essay I just published wow yeah

this is really important in a situation

of high ambiguity left hemispheric

processes in human cognition will gladly

prefer to generate a

crisis they will go for Pure disaster

because disaster is a role we know we

know how disaster works we know what our

role is in science it we don't know how

just being human and improvising works

and this is an important

um this is an important pivot to

introduce to the friend we were speaking

about earlier the the usefulness of

improvisation and just being fully human

in a situation where there's High

ambiguity and we feel at

risk because normally what we will do is

we will accept one of three

roles that are familiar to us because we

know how they work and those rules are

victim persecutor and

rescuer and those rules are very

attractive because we extremely familiar

with how they how they are structured

how they function and what outcomes they

produce

so this is what's called the drama

triangle right victim persecutor rescuer

and people can switch roles in in a

dramatic situation the point I'm making

is something really trippy which is

that we will accept shitty roles because

we're not comfortable with improvising

or expanding our Humanity we're

comfortable with what's

familiar historically and habitually

emotionally psychologically

relationally so people just reenact

these roles over and over again instead

of allowing themselves to improvise

especially if they feel threatened by

the vigilance ambigu Beauty prediction

triangle and it's it's important to

encourage them to improvise that gives

them a

move where they don't have one you if

they realize that they're reenacting a

habitual role because it's familiar that

can actually unlock the cage for them

does that make any sense oh yeah for

sure so now I'm gonna say something even

weirder I realized when I discovered

this problem with familiar roles that

actors actually do something really

trippy they take a familiar

structure that should be dead inside

because it's just the repetition of some

Trope right some um some role right

almost always that role is victim

persecutor or rescuer right hero it

takes some familiar

role and instead of just becoming the

rote structure of the role they come to

life inside it they improvise inside the

role thus demonstrating to us the key to

the cage of our own human foible of just

the the continual enactment of a role

that's dead inside what do you

think so you're saying they breathe life

into a Trope that's been used over and

over again how they come to life inside

one of the structured roles of Vicor

vitim persecutor or rescuer that

ordinarily is just a historical

reenactment right they take a structured

role and they improvise inside the lines

of that role thus making the role become

inspired and Alive vitalizing it so

they're actually showing us how to do

that in our own lives and that's part of

why we become fascinated with them even

though we don't know this usually

it kind of goes back to our some

previous conversation about how the

games we play are

often domination war-based games yes at

least you know video games and board

games and so then you look at movies and

yeah that victim rescuer and persecutor

is the story that's it's just over and

over and over again exactly and when we

like you know when you called me

initially I called you some kind of a

name and then you asked me what I was

doing and then I said something

completely ridiculous that I would never

do right and so we're even though it

sounds like guys just doing the guy

thing together we're actually

improvising within the we were actually

improvising within the role for

sure and so when when guys like quote

unquote [ __ ] talk to each other

other um that's part of what they're

doing is they're they're doing that

thing that the dogs do when they wrestle

except they're doing it mostly in

language they're exchanging

insults that if it were

serious would cause fights but since

it's

playful it it just it's like a bonding

ritual it's interesting because I I

listen to a story and The Story

Goes Darren and Nate were taking a walk

and they had a great time and they saw

this beautiful thing and they did this

beautiful thing and they uh you know met

a

squirrel and it was sick and we helped

it so there's The Rescuer you know

victim Trope um y yada yada yada and

it's basically just 30 hours of good

thing after good thing oh something bad

thing happens oh okay here's the

resolution good thing good good thing

good

like that's not the interesting story

the the the the thing that makes a

million dollars in the movie theater is

tension all the way um ambiguity it's

it's playing with

that and by the way it wakes up the

vigilance of the viewer because and how

does it do that it introduces negative

ambiguity right and then it causes them

to start making predictions

right and then and then that's the game

you can play with those predictions you

can have plot

twists yeah exactly the moment you know

there's a murder you're trying to figure

out who did

it right you're just scripted to do

this I used to go to movies with my dad

when I was a kid and this would really

[ __ ] me up we'd be like in scene two of

the movie he's like that guy killed that

person and I'm like what

like he had figured out the

language of

drama to a degree like his predictive

capacities were

astonishing and he thought there was

something metaphysical to this I only

discovered this later after he died

actually he thought he had a

system maybe he

did but I mean if you're playing with

the confines of like movies and and art

that that's a lot that it's hard to for

me to feel safe projecting that out into

real life experiences not to say that

the movies and art we make isn't a

reflection of daily occurrences but I

think that movies and stuff is a lot

more

contained than the metaphysical nature

of humans it's true yeah no it's true

because the movie is happening in a box

literally right it's a literal frame so

most of reality is missing and within

that frame it's not too hard to solve

problems but all of us get reads on

humans and we do make predictions

whether they're conscious or not about

the person's Integrity their

desirability as a relational partner all

these things and one of the things that

um no I'm not going to say

that so my my dad for example was

extremely good at reading opportunity

spaces and also at reading

[Music]

people he had a kind of natural flare

and part of this is because he went from

a place where the ambiguity and

complexity is extremely high and

compressed I.E Brooklyn New

York it's

California right so immediately he's a

big fish playing in a small pond

in in New York right the number of

events per second the temporal

compression the relational compression

is way higher in Brooklyn than it is

anywhere in

California right there just so so he

went from a a position of really high

compression where he learned his skills

to a position of much lower compression

he had an

advantage he definitely had an advantage

from that and this is how New Yorkers

tend to think when they come to

California I mean I saw some lady I was

in the line at the grocery store up the

street there's like I don't know eight

people in line right this lady comes in

and she's gonna buy some batteries and

she's uh she just gets she just goes to

the second position the person right

after the the you know the person who's

being checked out at the

moment and I I looked at her and I

said are you from New York like how did

you

know I was like because only somebody

from New York would think that they

could just you know because she's like

well my my car's parked outside I I got

my blinkers on I gotta you know I'm like

yeah you're from New

York she she doesn't give a [ __ ] about

the line she's just like these are a

bunch of Californians I can just

manipulate the [ __ ] out of this who's

gonna stop

me so yeah compression matters and what

you were saying about the film is true

right it's a small box there's a limited

number of variables much more limited

than than with actual humans but my dad

and other people like you and me if we

want to and you know there's two

different there's sort of two major

branches of this the first is altruistic

opportunism which is something you and I

are both very highly focused on I think

and the other is U manipulative like

selfish opportunism

right

and so we can certainly expand the

skills we would

use in the Triangle of vigilance

ambiguity

prediction when we're watching a film we

can transfer those skills to real

life you know I it's interesting because

that

altruism um it's been an interesting

ride you know just kind of getting into

that mindset of like it ain't all about

Nathan

um and realizing the the relationship

between when I take risks I sacrifice my

own security for the well-being of

others I'm often rewarded for that it

becomes a very interesting dance

of

um how much should I be

intellectualizing altruism versus

enacting it from a place that altruism

tends to pour out of like a Wellspring

which is the heart

uh you know I use love as a North

star um I I that's a personal word

because when you tend to use love in

most circles people think they're

talking about the same thing but they're

often have vastly different

relationships with that word sure like

all words right yeah exactly

um and I find that when I use the

intelligence of my body in these

emotions of giving you know care

forgiveness um

um not martyr ISM but allowing myself to

be seen as undesirable

things with the recognition that there

are higher truths and more Beauty to

come from those kind of positions I

realize that I'm playing a

game

that

um is constantly putting me in that

position of uncertainty it's constantly

putting me in like a I have no idea I

cannot predict what's going to happen um

when I give away resources to people

that I may never see again

or um

decide not to go make a bunch of money

building bombs because I know that those

bombs are going to go kill people and

that doesn't align to my altruistic

values

um I give up security

for you know the absence of something

so all that being said I'm rapidly

becoming more and more comfortable

with very little it was kind of kind of

not being able to see past my nose

But continuing continuing to be met in

life with beauty and with

reciprocity it's it's very it's

fascinating journey and I'm

wondering what that stirs up in you okay

so this goes back

to let's let's just be clear

historically you were experimenting with

your capacity to manipulate situations

is that not

true sure mostly unconsciously sure but

I think often consciously too because

you're you're in extremely insightful

and I see you as quite intelligent in

the sense of the capacity to understand

variables and you know um do what's

needed to get the result you want which

could be understood as C cunning you're

you're potentially cunning sure um

and what happened for you I think was

that you underwent and you're still in

the process you underwent a

transformation um in which you you

started to realize wait there's there's

like five other games I could play play

and if I'm after rewards the kinds I

can't expect easily are actually better

than the ones I'm familiar with right

okay so and similar to me I I realized

early on like the rewards I get from

random acts of

altruistic experiment are much more

satisfying than the ones that I get from

manipulation even though I too am

capable of

manipulation so we both switched over

and here's the thing that happened

we switch from the mechanical in

um

the sorry is that siren bothering you no

I can't hear it at all okay um we

switched

from mechanical utilitarian evaluations

of

reward to

risk right and part of how we switched

was by going from

wrote analysis and and mechanical

manipulation of variables in the

relation space and the opportunity space

to

play this is what I was talking about

earlier with the switch to improvisation

from a familiar role we don't know how

it works we don't know what the outcome

is we don't even know if we get a reward

right it's not merely the delayed reward

experiment of you you know can the

monkey sit in front of two bananas for

three three hours knowing that they're

going to get five later or do they have

to eat the bananas right

now it's not just that it's something

much much more profound which is to play

sincerely to be authentic and vulnerable

and alive and creative in a situation

where other people are tending to play

in a more utilitarian

sense so we learned

that we can discover new features of our

Humanity by improvising and taking the

risk of moving Outside The Familiar

roles and outside our intellectual or

opportunistic capacity to manipulate

circumstances now look if I'm relating

with a

corporation I don't give a [ __ ] about

altruism that's not a human being I want

benefits right now yeah I think I make

that mistake quite often

interesting that you called it a mistake

say

more all right where did we leave off

all right so we're talking about the

switch from rote or analytical

utilitarian evaluation of role and

reward to improvisation where the reward

itself doesn't become the goal what

becomes the goal is something like

relational Integrity experiment play

improv right

um and that's risky because we know how

to manipulate things we're intelligent

we're insightful we can see some

variables but what I was saying earlier

is if I'm interacting with a

corporation I don't give a [ __ ] about

altruism now if I'm interacting with a

person in an organization I care about

that person but I want

benefits because they're treating me

like an object and you know as far as

I'm concerned there's no relational

Integrity there um and you were saying

that you you used to make that mistake

you called it a mistake so I wanted to

hear more about why you think that's a

mistake right so like I struggle with

the to steal or not to

steal I I see grocery stores as

incredible evil um not like you know I'm

outstanding in front of it like flipping

it off but like um there are people

starving and yet there's all this

bounceable food just sitting here

rotting being thrown out at the end of

the

day um

and I don't respect the business I don't

respect the institution that it's born

from and

so you know if I can get away with

spending less money there I will for

sure sure

um then you know I have a moral crisis

because I go oh you know I don't agree

with stealing where do I draw that

line um am I making a mistake by viewing

the

corporation you know am I gonna be

punished in some way like like what not

by the law but by some like karmic order

you know

and I don't know how to navigate that

because it gets into the realm of

um the mechanics of the universe that I

don't understand and what exactly

Divinity is and how you know how are the

sets scales and balances balanced at the

end of the day like who who's keeping

score right I don't know right neither

do I but

um we can say something very primordial

and fundamental about this

um the first thing is you didn't invent

language so did you steal language from

humans uh I wouldn't say

so there's lots of things that you

didn't pay for that you received so

what's the difference between things you

receive that you don't pay for and

things you receive that you do pay for

now I think you find that in relation I

agree but that's only if there's

Integrity in the relational manif F

which there naturally is in small human

groups because of

reputation um but in broadscale groups

that goes away what I was going to say

that I think is

primordial

is possess

nothing do not take anything that is not

yours

ever neither emotional nor relationally

nor commercially nor objectively possess

nothing care nothing for

possessions care about

beings adore beings give whatever is

asked ask for as little as

possible that's a primordial guideline

that we can probably

trust but we live in a highly layered

representational environment

where there's all kinds of misbehavior

going on and so in that environment we

should have a layered I think it's

intelligent since we live in this

environment to have a layered

response

um I don't know how to say this

but I'll just be

blunt I'm a

thief I've been stealing [ __ ] since I

was a little

kid

um I don't I I tend to respect the

boundaries of personal

ownership as far as my my thieving goes

right try not to steal from people but I

don't give a part of me doesn't give a

[ __ ] about stealing from organizations

because I don't believe they're

people

yeah I mean that's what I'm navigating

to the primordial principle is always

valid right the thing I said first is

the thing I actually know like I

trust and I can't sorry go ahead I can't

obey it I feel very possessive about

certain

objects it's one of my character

flaws yeah I I don't feel possessive I

don't have necessarily a desire to own

things but I don't I I'm like slowly

eing myself

towards understanding the fact

that I don't know if it's a fact but

some there there's some relationship

with being fed like given being and I

mean that not just in a food way but

like being given the things that you

need

and and playing around with defining

need and versus want

like there's a story happening in all of

our lives

and people talk a lot about alignment

you know with Destiny and with what

they're here to do in this

Incarnation like like being in a body is

a mission of itself and here to relate

in a certain way and that's a very

interesting a very very interesting like

idea to me I I I spend a lot of time

wondering and being curious about this

proposition that's been around for a

long time of Destiny

and this this Incarnation being a very

small part of uh a bigger

picture in terms of like a

soul and so when that comes into play I

go you know logically why would I be

here on

Earth if I how like like is my job to

collect the resources that are then

necessary for me to do the thing I was

meant to do or is

there is that an illusion and and I'm

going to be handed the things that I

need um and I realize I've collapsed the

manifold quite a bit here um with a lot

of you

know scenar with the scenario but it

kind of gives you an insight into what

I'm exploring in all this this altruism

it's like oh when I let

go when I

trust that what will be what I need

capital N

need I trust that that will be given to

me um and everything else is kind of a

distraction or an illusion things start

to move things start to shift around me

and I start to become lighter and feel

Freer because I don't worry so much

about what I possess and I worry a lot

more about my relationship to people and

to just about everything and that has

only benefited

me and yet I don't even though I've been

benefited I don't know if that's because

it's a good

strategy with a weird lore written

around it or if I'm tapping into some

sort of you know universal truth about

Incarnation and while we're here okay so

yeah it does the word you used

strategy right that implies the

utilitarian analysis of variables and

situations so it's not a strategy and

this is the difference between

approaching relationships and situations

analytically and the thing I was talking

about earlier right um because the

analytical rule is

obviously selfish and

opportunistic yeah it's about what do I

get and weirdly the altruistic rule in

my view in my felt sense is not about

what do I get it's about who do I

become it's about

role right and so improvising that role

learning to be human in a situation

where we are at

risk and resisting the

urge to deal utilitarian in a

utilitarian fashion that is you know

quote pragmatic

unquote is part of the process of

becoming human because we're not I think

actually we are probably kind of born

human with all of our potential

faculties in nent form but what we're

exposed to in human culture and Lang

when we undergo in culturation and in

languaging that adds a layer that that

is very [ __ ] confusing and painful to

relate with it doesn't make sense

and so many of us respond to that and

it's relatively natural to respond to

that opportunistically well if it's

about if it's about

accounting then I'm gonna get the

stuff right [ __ ] those other people this

is about

me um much like I do not want to play

the accounting game I really don't it's

so yeah you're you're you you okay the

accounting game let's be really clear

the accounting game appears to be useful

in an accounting sense but it's the most

expensive game you can play because you

can live your life and not have a moment

of Being

Human so that that game becomes more

expensive every time we play

it we have to I guess I'm willing to

completely relinquish that game Al

together and put my full faith in you

know this invisible force

but I don't I I obviously haven't done

that because on some level I don't

really believe that it's there I just

know that I'm relating with something

that seems like it's there does that

make sense it does but I can I think I

can address that very effectively

sure like when when when am I gonna go

too far with this and then completely

fall

through um here's 's the problem you're

actually using your accountant to try to

make the

determination of whether you should be

free or

not here's here's what I mean you're

trying to figure out whether there's

some invisible force that will reward

you if you're

authentic yeah okay and and here's the

thing that's not part of the

equation whether or not there's an

invisible force that's got your back

you're still using the accountant to try

to be free of the accountant there

doesn't have to be an invisible

force the same thing can be true with or

without any invisible

force all it depends on is authenticity

in

relation and whether you're acting

within the purview of your of the spirit

of your being and the spirit of your

being doesn't have to be

metaphysical

right so you established a false

dichotomy and the false dichotomy is

this only works if there's an invisible

force that has my

back right because otherwise what I'm

doing is suicide no it isn't that's the

accountant talking it's got to be it's

got to be either invisible force or

you're just Reckless and you're going to

die

that's not that's nothing like the game

that is a foot my

friend the game that is a foot has

infinite

Bubbles and so as you move in the bubble

space it actually doesn't

matter first of all your destiny so to

speak is not determined by some

pre-existing set of rules it may be

influenced by them possibly but you set

up a false psychot where either there's

an invisible force that's got my back or

I'm a dead man right that's not true

you're a living man right now whether or

not there's an invisible force you're a

being and you're not just a man you're a

being right you're an organism you're an

animal you're a human you're all of

these things and the big ones are huge

right being is infinite organism is

pretty big animal is gigantic human is

smaller person is very tiny in

comparison I just want to be really

clear like your life's in adventure I

think it's meant to be lived out of a

spirit of beauty and Discovery and

exploration and experiment and play if

if your ability to play has to depend on

whether or not there's some invisible

force that's got your back as long as

you're you know not just doing the

accounting thing no no dude

no that's not there's no part of that

that that is real the invisible force

may or may not be there either way if

you play well you're going to be

fine and what you means is complex might

not mean your human body right yeah and

that that's that's something that's

interested me is like in that

exploration I think

the the life beyond death

um you know exploration

has depended on that invisible force for

me for a long time because I think okay

if this is really just a game of you

know play and we somehow got confused

with all this accounting stuff then of

course then there's gonna be you know

we're gonna wake up from this dream

after a while and be like that was fun

what's next

um I think there's something really

important to consider here this is a toy

I'm not saying that this is how it

is but what if your actual life and the

game that you're actually playing which

isn't entirely a game but we'll call it

that what if your life and the game that

you're playing and the thing that I

called your

spirit

that you're using you're learning to use

to navigate your experience

with as you transform from an accountant

to an improviser

what if what is inspiring that

improvisation is actually your

death what if your soul is the knowledge

you have Beyond this

lifetime attempting to influence your

behavior within this

lifetime what if afterlife isn't the

actually important thing what if the

after death is actually your Soul's

intelligence leaking back what if your

life is your death leaking back into

Incarnation yeah I mean I don't even

know what the [ __ ] to do with that yes

you do you're brilliant you're gonna

have no problem with this you're gonna

chew on this and you're gonna be like oh

my God that's [ __ ]

insane because I think honestly at this

late phase in my life I've lived a long

time for a human

I'm starting to see that we've got this

whole thing with death backwards it's

inside

out our life is actually inspired by our

death in the future remember I told you

that I was concerned that there was an

event in the future that was sending

shock waves back in

time what if that's what our soul

is what if our soul is the position

Above All Our Lives and it leaks

backwards in time into actual specific

existences certainly makes you wonder

why things are the way they are no it's

it it it actually explains why the

things are the thing are the way they

are it really does because everybody's

got it backwards right they're playing

the game from the wrong end of the

board right they think I need to

preserve this this separate self and if

I mess up it's going to be I'm going to

get judged and it'll be

destroyed when in actually in actuality

they have to think from death into life

not from life into after

death your spirit is powerful I know

you and I'm not I mean I'm stupid about

simple things like every human is

but I can

see the power of your

spirit that [ __ ] is incredible man it's

like really momentous I'm not trying to

build you up or blow smoke up your ass

I'm trying to encourage you to trust

it right you can I trust you I trust

your heart and what I mean by your heart

is this position above a single life and

you keep wondering if there's this force

that will protect you you man that's the

force You're Made Of You're Made Of This

thing that's above your specific life

and frankly there's nothing really to

lose but your integrity in the moment so

when you go with your integrity in the

moment it's winwin it's it's bubble

making you're making bubbles and you've

seen this demonstrated to you it's been

demonstrated in conversations you and I

have had directly for sure particularly

the hilarious metaphor of the Sun Cloud

sunglasses yeah right like wait what the

thing that blocks the light what what

are you are you kidding me oh God

beautiful

fantastic yeah I I have a real deep my

goal is deep presence within every

moment and the understanding that I

don't need to plan the

future I mean both things work it

doesn't have to be one way or the other

bubbles bubble making involves lots of

different kinds of bubbles but but yeah

the to the degree that you don't have to

plan the future you're rich and to the

degree you have to plan it you're

poorer and our our society and our

civilization is based on the inversion

of that principle no it's all about the

future man you got to make the money put

it in the bank yeah let's go

it's very true I feel

that no I trust your soul and you know

you're wondering if there's some force

and what I'm trying to say is something

really weird the you're misusing the

thing you're wondering with because the

thing you're wondering with is the force

you don't believe

in the force that hasn't proved his

existence to you

yet it's the very thing that you wonder

about the existence of that with that is

the thing you're wondering

about dude you keep talking you're gonna

enlighten

me I'm learning with you man you're

you're shining the light of your

curiosity and and your existential

questions on my mind and then my mind

just starts reflecting [ __ ] like some

kind of water yeah it's it's a mutual

thing I our conversations are one of my

favorite games that we play oh it's a

beautiful game every time man I'm all

in um part two of having to leave you 10

minutes is my appointment I'm going to

go ahead and give myself a little buffer

room so I'm not just walking into this

office with like existential thoughts

dripping yeah yeah it's all good cool um

it's been a pleasure as always uh I

will maintain our friendship now that I

have a little more stability you know

it's apprciate recently um do I have

your permission to post the recordings

for sure yeah excellent I want other

people to benefit yeah it's my

altruistic

Drive yeah to uh to many

more to your spirit that invisible force

that you've been wondering

about good stuff I love you man you're

amazing dude just keep being beautiful

you got this you too you too I'll see

you in the next one all right peace

peace